Joel Whitburn criticism: chart fabrication, misrepresentation of sources, cherry picking

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originally published on 3 March 2013; revised on 12 November 2015; latest edit: 19  September 2023

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In a review titled “A Discographic Deception,” dated July 13, 1987, by expert discographer and sound historian Tim Brooks, of the notorious but influential venture into acoustic-era popular music chart fabrication by Joel Whitburn in his 1986 book Pop Memories 1890-1954: The History of American Popular Music, the author exposes flaws in Whitburn’s research methodology, and reveals numerous instances of Whitburn’s astonishingly bad habit of mispresentating sources. In case after case, according to Brooks’ analysis, Whitburn’s cited sources contain nothing like what he says they do, and specifically do not contain the periodic “lists of top popular recordings,” sales data, or ranking information he attributes to them, and which might have contributed to the chart data he claims to have derived from them. Whitburn’s source of “sheet music sales” data for acoustic-era recordings is unidentified. An edited version of response letter from Joel Whitburn, and a rebuttal by Brooks, follow the review.

Quotes from the 13 July 1987 Tim Brooks review “A Discographic Deception,” regarding Whitburn’s Pop Memories 1890-1954:

it must be said, the entire book is a colossal fraud.

But wait, you say, you didn’t know there were any popular charts in 1890? You are right. Whitburn simply made them up.

The great danger is that Whitburn’s apparently precise data, with its impressive looking sources, will be reprinted and enshrined as historical fact by others. This has already begun to happen…Whitburn has certainly been misleading in not making it clear that his “charts” are entirely speculative, and, as we have seen, none too accurate.

In a later scathing 26 November 1989* review/exposé by Tim Brooks of Joel Whitburn’s Pop Memories the author wrote,

This is a dangerous bookHere we have a whole book full of misleading information, presented in such a factual, almost statistical manner that it is bound to be quoted.

From the introduction of the book Popular American Recording Pioneers:1895-1925 by Tim Gracyk with Frank Hoffmann (2012), p. 11:

A few writers in recent years, following the example of Joel Whitburn’s Pop Memories: 1890-1954 (Record Research Inc., 1986), have cited precise chart numbers for early recordings — what records after being released were number one, number two, number three, and so on. It is a deplorable trend, and I never refer to chart positions. Primary sources provide no basis for assigning chart numbers. No company files tell us precise numbers; trade journals never systematically ranked records

At no time in the acoustic era was enough information compiled or made available about sales for anyone today to create accurate charts or rank best-sellers, and the further back in time we go, the more difficulty we have in identifying hits. Even if one had access to sales figures of the 1890s, a chart of hits means little for an era when records of many popular titles were made in the hundreds, not thousands or millions

All chart positions concerning recordings of the acoustic recording era are fictitious, and since they mislead novice collectors, they do much harm.

Billboard published the first singles popularity charts in 1940 (see the section “History, methods and description” in the Wikipedia article on Billboard charts). The Hit Parade chart first published in 1936 seems to have been something else, though the Wikipedia article on Billboard chart history contains contradictory definitions of the term hit parade. Wikipedia’s article on the term Hit parade begins by saying it is a ranked list of the most popular recordings at a certain point in time, but subsequently states that through the late 1940s the term hit parade referred to a list of compositions, since “In those times, when a tune became a hit, it was typically recorded by several different artists.” The latter use of the term suggests that the Billboard Hit Parade charts from 1936 to 1939 may have only ranked songs, rather than individual recordings, according to their popularity. I’ve yet to find any of these early Billboard Hit Parade charts online.

In section 1.4 of the article Review of Irving Berlin: A Life In Song, by Philip Furia, by music theorist and historian David Carson Berry, published in the Volume 6, Number 5, November 2000 issue of the journal Music Theory Online, the author says (link and italics added):

Beginning in 1935 (nearly three decades after Berlin’s first song), Your Hit Parade was broadcast on radio (and later on television); it offered a national survey, with chart positions based on various factors including sales of records and sheet music (although its evolving rankings formula was never clearly articulated). Thus, from 1935 onward, one can at least say that a song was number X according to that particular source. For songs released beforehand, however, there is no consistent way to derive such a ranking. Variety and other publications may provide ad hoc sales figures, or print very specific charts (for example, of record sales by a given company in a given market), but they offer nothing that would enable one to say, so generally, that a song was “number X” nationally.

From where did the national (US) chart positions for years prior to 1935 or 1936, that can now be found all over the web, come from? As outlined above, they sprang from the imagination of Joel Whitburn. There were no national charts during this era for best-selling or most popular records; therefore, no national chart positions. Why make them up?

Popular websites which routinely and extensively incorporate Joel Whitburn’s fabricated pre-1936 “chart” figures include:

  • Wikipedia
  • MusicVF.com
  • JazzStandards.com
  • TSort.info — via “charts” drawn from bullfrogspond.com, a site which is presently down

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Links to the aforementioned reviews and articles, and other relevant criticism

Pre-1936 popular music chart fabrication, and misrepresentation of sources:

  • Tim Brooks July 13, 1987 review, titled “A Discographic Deception,” of the Joel Whitburn book Pop Memories 1890-1954: The History of American Popular Music (1986)
    • But wait, you say, you didn’t know there were any popular charts in 1890? You are right. Whitburn simply made them up.
    • “…the entire book is a colossal fraud.
  • Tim Brooks, 26 November 1989 review of the Joel Whitburn book Pop Memories 1890-1954: The History of American Popular Music (1986)
    • This is a dangerous book
    • Here we have a whole book full of misleading information, presented in such a factual, almost statistical manner that it is bound to be quoted.
  • The Mainspring Press Record Collectors Blog (link broken as of 30 January 2017)
    • The charts referred to were actually fabricated by pop-culture writer Joel Whitburn, and were quickly recognized by astute collectors and researchers as fictitious.”
  • from Review of Irving Berlin: A Life In Song, by Philip Furia, section 1.4, by music theorist and historian David Carson Berry, published in the Volume 6, Number 5, November 2000 issue of the journal Music Theory Online.
    • (referring to Pop Memories 1890-1954, by Joel Whitburn) There is much misinformation to be found in books like this, however, which fabricate single-number chart positions; rankings often are based on sources that may have reported company-biased or only regional information, and, in extreme cases, information may be merely anecdotal.

Fictitious chart performance profiles for mid to late 1950s recordings, created by combining cherry-picked data from multiple charts:

  •  forum at elvis-collectors.com; 21 November 2011 thread (quoting user Herkenrath)
    • Whitburn doesn’t only cherry-pick the peak positions but all other chart information as well. He takes the peak from one chart, weeks spent on chart from a different chartHe does it this way for every record charted in any of these [Billboard pop] charts between 1955 and 1958. So what you see in Joel Whitburn’s books for that period is indeed a cherry-picking from four different charts published by Billboard during that era.

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* The article at timbrooks.net is dated November 26, 1989. However, the page URL bears the date 1990, and a note at the bottom of the page, following the article and its ten footnotes, indicates that the page, which consists almost entirely of the review, was “last modified on November 5th, 2011.”

46 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Rick Heinegeber
    Jan 23, 2015 @ 17:50:56

    This was great to read, I never liked Whitburn. The “token” payment system for his database is just plain retarded, as opposed to a monthly subscription. I always wondered what kind of scam he had going with Billboard to get access to all their record information. Some sort of exclusive deal I am told. I have been using the Bullfrogpond music database for songs from 1890-1945 but I believe they simply use Whitburns sources. Which begs the question, What is a reliable source for releases pre 1946? It is also sad that all Billboard Charts apart from the year end 100 are locked away in a vault somewhere. I would love to follow the historical Disco / Dance and Alternative Charts somehow.

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    • doc
      Jan 23, 2015 @ 21:15:02

      Hi Rick,

      It is also sad that all Billboard Charts apart from the year end 100 are locked away in a vault somewhere.

      Beginning in 1940, popularity charts have been published in the weekly issues of the magazine. The length of the published charts has varied over time, and data for non-charting records is presumably archived somewhere.

      From 1940 until the institution of the Hot 100 singles chart in 1958, there were usually three separate Billboard singles popularity charts, and the number of singles in two of the three charts varied, according to Wikipedia, from 20 to 50, while the third remained at 20 during this period (from Wikipedia‘s page on the Billboard Hot 100):

      Best Sellers in Stores: ranked the biggest selling singles in retail stores, as reported by merchants surveyed throughout the country (20 to 50 positions). It is the oldest of the Billboard charts and dates to 1936.
      Most Played by Jockeys: ranked the most played songs on United States radio stations, as reported by radio disc jockeys and radio stations (20 to 25 positions).
      Most Played in Jukeboxes: ranked the most played songs in jukeboxes across the United States (20 positions). This was one of the main outlets of measuring song popularity with the younger generation of music listeners, as many radio stations resisted adding rock and roll music to their playlists for many years.

      These charts were replaced in 1958 by the Billboard Hot 100 chart (introduced 4 August 1958), which was supplemented in 1959 by the Billboard Bubbling Under Hot 100 chart (introduced 1 June 1959). The number of items in the latter chart has fluctuated over the years between 10 and 36.

      Which begs the question, What is a reliable source for releases pre 1946?

      According to Wikipedia, Billboard published the first “Music Popularity Chart” in 1940. I’ve briefly referred to this history above, in this page. Data from prior to 1940 rapidly becomes increasingly scarce and questionable. I’m unaware of a reliable source, or combination of sources, for earlier popularity rankings of recordings.

      Added 14 July 2015: There were no national popularity rankings of recordings that I’m aware of prior to 1940. But see my comments below regarding the Billboard “hit parade” launched in 1936, which may have ranked songs rather than recordings.

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      • Rick Heinegeber
        Mar 16, 2015 @ 21:56:26

        Thanks for your reply Doc. Really like your site, lot of good info, very informative. I would have to say Annette Hanshaw is my fav ’20s gal. There is a great radio show where they play actual 78rpms from 1890-1930s, its called “The Ragged Antique Phonograph Program” on WFMU, you should check it out.

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      • doc
        Mar 17, 2015 @ 00:03:31

        I’m unaware of a reliable source, or combination of sources, for earlier record popularity rankings, or “charts.”

        However, there is a gray area from January 1936, when Wikipedia says Billboard published it’s first music “hit parade,” to the advent of the Billboard “Music Popularity Chart” in July 1940. Also, I haven’t yet accounted for the apparent contradiction of the statement, quoted from the history section of Wikpedia’s Billboard Hot 100 article, in my comment above regarding the Best Sellers in Stores category: “It is the oldest of the Billboard charts and dates to 1936.” Was that a “hit parade” chart which ranked songs, or a singles popularity chart? I’ve yet to discover digitized Billboard charts from the period 1936 to 1939. If they exist, then presumably they are available in archived issues of the magazine from the period.

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      • David Dana-Bashian
        Mar 25, 2021 @ 20:19:13

        Who knows what is the source information for the end-of-the-year charts on http://longboredsurfer.com/charts/ ? My contact at Billboard has no idea how such end-of-the-year charts came to exist.

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        • musicdoc1
          Mar 25, 2021 @ 22:42:01

          David,

          Hi. I don’t know what source Longbored Surfer used, but the same charts may be found via this Wikipedia page: Billboard year-end top singles of 1946. Links to charts for subsequent years are found at the bottom of the page. See the footnote for a link to a PDF file that might be the source.

          Regards,
          doc

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        • David Dana-Bashian
          Mar 25, 2021 @ 22:58:04

          I don’t know what relevance 1946 in particular has to my questions. In any event, Wikipedia so far has not provided any *original* sourcing for the “revised” charts, let alone any justification for any such “revised” chart. Such concerns might be just interesting curios if it were not for the fact that just about everyone, including Casey Kasem (most of the time), quoted/quotes only the “revised” charts, rather than the print editions of the charts. Among many concerns, the print editions claim five songs at #1 on the end-of-the-year charts that were not #1 on any weekly chart (for 1963, 1965, 1966, 2000, 2001), versus three in for the “revised” charts (for 1965, 2000, 2001).

          I cannot post any comment directly because of some error that the program seems to be encountering with my e-mail address:

          “Error: An unexpected error occurred when retrieving your email address from Google.”

          Liked by 1 person

        • musicdoc1
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 00:43:39

          David,

          I don’t know what relevance 1946 in particular has to my questions.

          After I sent my first response to you, I revised it, clarifying that yes that page only has the 1946 chart, but that links to subsequent charts are found at the bottom of the page. I also referred you to the link in the footnote, which is for a PDF file that I thought might be the source, though I hadn’t downloaded the file at the time.

          After downloading it, I realized that it was simply a digital copy of the January 4, 1947 issue of Billboard Magazine, which includes various year-end charts for 1946. The 1946 year-end top singles chart is on page 14, under the title The Year’s Top Popular Retail Record Sellers. I just now notice that the footnote in the cited Wikipedia page includes the page number. The footnote on the corresponding Wikipedia page for the 1947 chart indicates that the singles chart for 1947 is in the January 3, 1948 issue, on page 19, and (after downloading the link) that’s where I found it.

          Among many concerns, the print editions claim five songs at #1 on the end-of-the-year charts that were not #1 on any weekly chart

          The fact that a year-end #1 record failed to hit #1 on any weekly chart is understandable. A note at the top of each of the cited Wikipedia pages indicates that the charts are based on retail sales for the whole year. If that’s the case, then a record that stayed in the top 10 for several weeks, without reaching #1, could easily outsell, over the course of a year, #1 records that fell off the charts quickly after peaking.

          Remember, a golf professional can win a tournament without having the best round on any day, and the Tour de France has been won multiple times by a cyclist who didn’t win a single stage of the event (including Greg LeMond in 1990).

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        • musicdoc1
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 00:53:11

          Convenient links to digital copies of Billboard Magazine issues, from 1894 to 2017, may be found here: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Music/Billboard-Magazine.htm.

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        • Rich Cole
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 02:02:04

          Thank you for that link! I didn’t know about it – what a treasure trove! Flipping through a random 80s Billboard, I noticed an ad for “Not the American Top 40,” a parody of Casey Kasem. It’s on YouTube (what isn’t?) and hilarious. Thanks again!

          Liked by 1 person

        • David Dana-Bashian
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 07:37:59

          I already knew about both sets of charts and the discrepancies between them. What I still lack is, specifically who “revised” these charts? and what are the quantitatively justifiable bases, if any, for the “revisions”?

          I already knew that a song may be sufficiently popular to be #1 for the whole year but not #1 on a weekly chart. That’s not the issue. What is the issue is that the “revised” charts took away two of those sufficiently popular #1 songs for the year, namely, “Surfin’ U.S.A.” (for 1963) and “California Dreamin'” (for 1966), replacing them with the weekly #1 hits “Sugar Shack” and “The Ballad of the Green Berets”, respectively, and made many other chart changes, for those years and for other years, apparently without any quantifiable justifiable basis or specific source material and/or revision formulas to back up such changes, and all presumably without Billboard’s knowledge or permission.

          Liked by 1 person

        • musicdoc1
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 13:09:15

          Thanks for the explanation. Sorry, I hadn’t read your previous message carefully and had missed the 5 (print edition charts) vs. 3 (“revised” charts) argument. I don’t know the source of the “revised” charts, and I’m planning to replace the link to the Longbored Surfer charts in my sidebar with links to the original Billboard charts. Haven’t decided whether to eliminate all links to the LS charts on my site. Last night I found what seems to virtually the same “revised” charts at another site, [link redacted], although of the three years I compared, 1946-1948, the latter has an additional recording for 1946.

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        • David Dana-Bashian
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 13:24:25

          The site that you just provided is also unsourced. Again, my contact has indicated that that site is also without the knowledge or permission of Billboard.

          Yet there must be some reason for nearly everyone references only the “revised” charts and not the original charts and has done so for fifty some years. Why?

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        • musicdoc1
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 13:42:26

          I’ve removed the link in my sidebar to the LS charts. Presently, the only links to those charts on my site are in two comments on this page, one by me and one by you. I think I’ll delete the paragraph containing the link in my 1/23/2015 comment.

          Like

        • Rich Cole
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 14:01:01

          Has anyone reached out to longbored to ask him about his methodology and/or discrepancies? It seems to matter a lot to folks here. He’d probably appreciate the engagement. How often does someone approach you to talk about record charts? (Virtually never, in my experience!)

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        • musicdoc1
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 15:25:15

          Has anyone reached out to longbored…

          Not I, but it’s a good idea. I invite you to do so, and report back to us, please.

          Like

        • Rich Cole
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 15:52:25

          I would but I don’t care that much.

          Liked by 1 person

        • Rich Cole
          Mar 25, 2021 @ 23:02:44

          I just did a spot-check of longboard’s list of 2020 songs against Billboard’s. They’re the same. Do they differ back before a certain date?

          Liked by 1 person

        • musicdoc1
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 01:18:28

          Rich,

          Hi! Thanks for checking that. It seems I hadn’t compared the two versions very closely, because it’s obvious that the respective lists for the earliest years are not equivalent. Billboard has just 35 for each of the first three years, 1946-1948, while Longbored Surfer has 47 for 1946, 46 for 1947, and 39 for 1948.

          Regards,
          doc

          Like

        • David Dana-Bashian
          Mar 26, 2021 @ 07:25:36

          I haven’t checked all of the years, but I do know that the charts for 1963, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, and 1970 are different. As I have already noted, the most pronounced differences are for 1963 and 1966 .

          Like

    • Mike
      Jul 22, 2016 @ 20:34:45

      You might want to check out the americanradiohistory.com website, as they have most of the Billboard magazines since 1940, in pdf files that are free to look at. In addition, I believe they are also in the process of doing the same with Cashbox and Radio & Records, too.

      Liked by 1 person

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  2. Eugene Overton
    Dec 24, 2016 @ 11:30:06

    Mr Whitburn book Pop Memories 1890-1954 and his subsequent update 1900-1940 (which is just a technical update in a larger book size format) is not a fraud. It is true that some of the criticism about recreating the acoustic era and pre world war 2 era is valid but not completely. Those people who are criticizing him and others need to be out there doing their own research and adding to the data not just running their mouths!

    There is no possible way any one person or one set of research would be able to be one hundred percent accurate on this era of music especially when there was NOTHING to start with! There were just the old records which people had listened to throughout those years with no points of reference. What Mr Whitburn did along with his handful of researchers which assisted him was to create a framework. They painstakingly attempted to obtain as much information as possible during the mid 1980’s, Since that time more data and information has come forth and other records, and charts have been created by others like Barry Kowals Hits of All Decades. He has charts of the HIT PARADE from 1935 as well as charts from 1900-1904 which have a great deal of more information than the top 5 chart data provided by Mr Whitburn. There are now numerous sources including the old magazines themselves now avaiable online. These include Billboard, Variety and other older sources.

    The main criticism I have about Mr Whitburn is that although he did a large amount of extensive research and created a powerful framework for artists and yearly hits for the pre 1940 era he has never updated or expanded it. The fact is for over 30 years he has contributed nothing to adding new or lost information which has emerged over the last 3 decades. So in my opinion one needs to look upon Mr Whitburns book and his research as the first part-the beginning only and to others for the rest of the picture of this vast musical era. There is more information and record data being found every day. So, while he created something which is now cited online and referenced. It should never be seen as the only source or definitive. It is just the overall framework. It is up to us to include as many other sources and information to supplement this and then and only then can one begin to get a more complete picture of all the songs by artists and missing potential hits.

    Mr Whitburn only gave us a small amount of recordings as he only created Top 3, then Top 5, Top 10, Top 15 Top 20 etc. If one could do enough research to create a Top 100 of each week from every year from 1900-1940 then we might actually have a much more precise or better look at all of the vast music recorded but not yet documented. There are a lot of artists and songs which are still lost to history as they never “charted”. In time this will change as more people do further research and attempt to document lost information.

    There is never going to be a BIBLE for this era. It will always be subjective. But the more information one looks at including Mr Whitburn and others who have spent their time and effort working on finding lost records and artists along with charts they have compiled. That information taken in total will give one the best picture if he or she is looking to find it. But remember there were no charts no nothing. At least now we have a much better insight to the music of the first 40 percent of the 20th century. And in my opinion that is all to the good!

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    • David
      Sep 06, 2023 @ 15:42:17

      “There is no possible way any one person or one set of research would be able to be one hundred percent accurate on this era of music especially when there was NOTHING to start with!”

      It sounds like what you’re saying here is that he had to make it all up, at least for the years prior to 1935. The best way to tell how many copies a record sold in those years, as Brooks notes, is to look at how many stampers were created and, where such data is available (generally it isn’t), how many records were shipped. As Brooks notes, and Whitburn seemed to implicitly acknowledge in his reply to said author, the latter was unaware that such data existed and did not actually consult any primary sources. So, calling Whitburn’s book a fabrication doesn’t seem an unfair assessment. One gets the impression that Whitburn, having produced other books based entirely on lists in trade publications, assumed the same methodology could be used to produce a chart book for the early years of the recording industry, when in fact the trade publications of the early years of recording are basically useless in determining how many copies a record actually sold.

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  3. Joseph Scott
    Aug 30, 2017 @ 11:26:32

    “would be able to be one hundred percent accurate” What a strange way of describing the reality that he just made numbers up, just pretended to something that was literally statistically impossible. Pretending you’ve done the literally impossible is fraud.

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  4. Ronald Volbrecht
    Sep 18, 2019 @ 07:23:00

    I am forever finding birth years to be wrong as well. The last 3 birth years of September born singers as relayed on hy local radio station, were off in Joel’s book by 1 year. Not a big deal, but now with your comments, it all makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your knowledge.

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  5. tillywilly
    Jul 03, 2020 @ 14:17:45

    Eugene Overton makes some reasonable assertions
    I am no dummy when it comes to American Popular music research
    The simple truth is there is an enormous variation of data, and we all know the pre-WWII charts are never going to get you an accurate reading of no. 1 no. 2 etc

    I just went through The Billboard of January 4, 1936
    There is a chart for Sheet Music Leaders; then 10 Best Records for Week Ended Dec. 30; another presentation of the Sheet Music; and finally Radio Song Census.

    Each chart explains it samples only 3 of the top sources, so all the other companies and labels are not included. “10 Best Records for Week” are 10 releases each by Columbia, Brunswick and Victor labels. Decca, Okeh and the others are not in the survey. This chart sucks. But if you read Billboard over the years, you can see the continuing effort they made to provide what is a very popular product. Their charts got much better by 1940, and in January 1944, there was a quantum leap in popular, hillbilly and whatever they called race records, blues and r&b. The terminology also changed over the years, and coon records went away.
    Anyway, it takes years of study to know all the record labels, artists, composers, the record business, broadway musicals that most popular songs were written for so many years, I could go on and on. I have absolutely nothing against Whitburn. Of course his charts are not accurate, but they are a serious attempt to document a subject we are all very interested in. On Usenet, they took his work, and advanced it greatly with more sensible formulas and standards, while using all his questionable data. It gave me a list of records to listen to, and I am not bothered that many of my favorites never made anybody’s chart. Thank you to all the tireless researchers that posted massive amounts of data from defunct record labels, that I keep in spreadsheets, done my way of course!

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  6. Theo
    Sep 12, 2023 @ 17:17:17

    OK, I get it now. The discrepancies are because Whitburn was quoting the peak position across multiple charts, which gets rather confusing.

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    • Theo
      Sep 13, 2023 @ 17:19:50

      I think my earlier comments on this post failed to appear, so my last comment makes no sense. Perhaps Jim can help with that.

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      • musicdoc1
        Sep 13, 2023 @ 19:30:11

        Theo,

        Hi. If you mean your comment that began “OK, I get it now,” I’ve removed that. The reason there was no antecedent to that comment from you published here, is that your previous comment was evidently sent via the Contact form. Comments made via the Contact form are sent to my email address and I’ve no means of forwarding them to the reply section on a page or post on the site. I was going to respond to that message via email, but your “I get it now” comment here seemed to indicate that you’d resolved the issues raised in the Contact form message. Let me know if you’d still like a response to you original Contact message.

        Regards,
        doc

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      • musicdoc1
        Sep 13, 2023 @ 19:39:35

        I restored your original comment here, because it was blocking the others in this thread after I unpublished it.

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        • Theo
          Sep 14, 2023 @ 15:20:18

          Doc, I tried posting that comment here, but there was no confirmation that it was actually submitted, even though it went to the next page after submission. Hence I thought I would send it to you via the contact form, to let you know that I had attempted to post the comment. I’m not sure why it didn’t appear here when the other comments did – maybe because of the length? I can try posting it again if you send it to me.

          Liked by 1 person

        • musicdoc1
          Sep 14, 2023 @ 16:29:01

          Theo,

          Sorry for the inconvenience, but it never arrived here, and the length wasn’t an issue. I’ll send it to your email address ASAP.

          Liked by 1 person

        • musicdoc1
          Sep 14, 2023 @ 16:48:40

          Theo,

          I just checked my comment spam and found a comment submitted by you on 9/12, twice. They went to spam automatically for unknown reasons. I apologize again for the inconvenience. However, since false positives have been quite rare over my 16 years using WordPress.com, and I trust their anti-spam filtering service, I’m going to leave them in spam for now. I’ll see if I can have WP.com staff have a look.

          ~ doc

          Liked by 1 person

  7. David Tilson
    Sep 13, 2023 @ 11:43:49

    I revised many of the year in music pages (Wikipedia)
    recently 1965-1969 (1965_in_music, etc)
    My charts are explained and based on points, include full value for all records that hit charts, nothing is left out, duplicated or undervalued

    Let’s be honest. I question all these charts, and the accuracy of all.
    So no. 1 thru 5 could all be the no 1 depending on formulas used. I went back to 1920 and tried to include the hit records. I think I greatly upgraded the history of country music up to 1949. It took years to put together, the 1930s are speculative of course, but I found sources 1939 forward, and did the best I could to put valuable information and rankings out there for people like me! I got massive spreadsheets with every week I could find charted out. I might be Whitburn Jr. to some, but I don’t think so. At the very least, I left an extensive trail of bread crumbs for the next tilly jr that comes along. Best to all.

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    • Theo
      Sep 13, 2023 @ 17:17:24

      Hmmm, I think using your own charts/rankings. probably isn’t a reliable source for Wikipedia. I assume it’s you that added the section “Billboard Top popular records of 1965” to 1965 in music. In which case, I suggest you read up on how to format articles on Wikipedia. For one thing, the # symbol should not be used to denote a chart position. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Music/Archive_8#Chart_hits
      The section also lacks citations, and using external links in article text is a no-no.

      Your work on the Mexicali Rose (song) article also needed a lot of tidying up. I don’t want to pour cold water on your efforts – but content added to Wikipedia needs to be properly sourced and cited (not speculative). It should also be formatted correctly. Try looking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Introduction

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    • musicdoc1
      Sep 13, 2023 @ 19:12:13

      David,

      Hi. You said, “I went back to 1920 and tried to include the hit records.” As I’ve outlined above, expert consensus appears to be that there were no national hit record charts during or before the 1920s, or in the 1930s, nor sufficient available data to have ever created such charts.

      From 1935, according to David Carson Berry, as quoted in the sixth paragraph of this page regarding Your Hit Parade, or from 1936, according to Wikipedia’s date for the first Hit Parade chart, there were national hit song charts. These hit song charts provided, as far as I know, no information on the popularity of individual recordings. Every popular song was recorded by multiple, often many, artists within months of the first released recording. Billboard’s first singles popularity charts were published in 1940.

      ~doc

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  8. tillywilly
    Sep 13, 2023 @ 20:12:35

    check this page out “1931_in_country_music”. It had 1-2 unsourced songs before.

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    • Theo
      Sep 14, 2023 @ 15:35:30

      I just had a look; I think your writing needs to be a bit more encyclopaedic in tone, and less conversational/informal. I can see the merit in listing the hit records in a particular year, but I don’t think using your own ranking is a good idea for Wikipedia. There’s also no context given for the term “hillbilly”, which is how I assume Billboard referred to country music.

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      • tillywilly
        Sep 14, 2023 @ 17:53:50

        Theo thanks for your comments. None of the data or rankings were “my own”. If you took the time to check all the references and my informal text, you would find the term “Country music” was not used until the late 1940s. From 1925-1948, the most common term to describe this was “Hillbilly music”. Also, none of the information on this page came from Billboard. or “The Billboard”, as it was known back then. This was one of the darkest years in American music, following the Stock Market crash of October 1929. The story is told year by year on these pages, the United States economy did not recover until we entered World War II. Back in 1931, most of the record companies from 1929 had gone out of business or were purchased by the surviving companies. Victor Records, now owned by RCA, Inc., was the largest. Also remaining was ARC (American Record Company, Inc.), using the label Brunswick Records, and Columbia Records, in great financial trouble. There is a website DAHR (click on the reference links and find out for yourself). They had been granted access to the Sony Archives in New York, where Sony was storing the archive of Victor Records and RCA Victor records, just purchased by Sony, and they digitized all the records and recordings, preserving dates, personnel, studios, and sales information. I have worked with Sony Archives, and DAHR was located at University of California, Santa Barbara, where I transferred for one quarter from UCLA back in 1983. I called them a few times and was very impressed and happy with their work saving these records. That is where I got the sales numbers used on our page. Just follow of the citations and you will see where I got “my list”. No, that list came to us because Victor was the only record company still releasing Hillbilly records, led by the legendary Jimmie Rodgers, due to The Great Depression.
        Sorry you don’t like the page, but I consider it a miracle. You obviously have no idea about how difficult it was to get information in the early 20th Century, which is the subject of the article we are commenting on. Sorry, I get upset when people make comments without even checking kinks and references first. “I can see the merit in listing the hit records in a particular year, but I don’t think using your own ranking is a good idea for Wikipedia. There’s also no context given for the term “hillbilly”, which is how I assume Billboard referred to country music.” Have a nice day.

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  9. Theo
    Sep 18, 2023 @ 17:24:12

    Many thanks for this article, Jim. I’m glad I came across it so that I know to ignore the pre-1940 data. Whenever I see pre-1940 US chart data mentioned on Wikipedia, I remove it, since all evidence points to there being no “official” record charts prior to that point.

    One thing I’ve noticed, in researching the post-1940 charts, is that since Whitburn combined multiple charts for the data, one has to be careful to check which chart the quoted peak position actually refers to. For example, a simple reading of the Artist Index will tell you that Now Is The Hour by Gracie Fields, accompanied by Phil Green’s Orchestra [London 110] made #4, according to Joel Whitburn’s Top Pop Singles, 1940-1955, published in 1973. However, it made #3 according to Joel Whitburn’s Pop Memories, 1890-1954 (1986), and his subsequent 1994 book Joel Whitburn’s Pop Hits, 1940-1954. This is because Pop Memories does not seem to make clear that it uses the highest position across the Jockey, Juke Box and Best Seller charts. The #3 peak was on the Jockey chart, whilst Now Is The Hour made #4 on the Best Seller chart – the position used in the 1973 book. Whitburn again uses the highest position across all three charts in the 1994 book, but at least in this one, a closer inspection will tell you which chart the position refers to.

    These seem to be the three books Whitburn authored covering 1940-54. I’m glad they’re now free to loan from the Internet Archive.

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    • musicdoc1
      Sep 19, 2023 @ 12:01:50

      Theo,

      Thanks for the kind compliments. The issue that you point out regarding Whitburn’s strange habit of selecting the highest position among multiple charts is part of the “cherry picking” referred to in the title of this page. However, I don’t turn to this issue until near the bottom of the page where I refer to “Fictitious chart performance profiles for mid to late 1950s recordings, created by combining cherry-picked data from multiple charts,” and provide links to two separate forum threads that address how this cherry picking by Whitburn led to fictitious chart profiles for the period 1955-1958.

      Your analysis suggests that the problem also exists in Whitburn’s books with regard to chart positions during the period 1940-1954 (the Fields single was released in 1947 in both the UK and the US), and specifically that the BB chart Whitburn selects as the one to draw the representative chart position from, for any single, is inconsistent across various books of his.

      Regards,
      ~ doc

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      • Theo
        Sep 19, 2023 @ 14:22:44

        Yes, I see what you mean by “cherry picking”. The fact he did this with different pieces of data is terrible, IMO: using a peak position from one chart, and the weeks on chart from another! Very misleading. FYI, the last link in your original post doesn’t work.

        Indeed, the problem does seem to exist in the Whitburn books covering 1940-54. I have no idea if these books suffer from his habit of using a peak from one chart and WOC from another chart. Yes, he is rather inconsistent. Surely it would have been better to list the peak position/WOC from the Best Sellers or equivalent, and put the data from other charts underneath the song title line.

        I think the bottom line is to avoid Pop Memories (1986): the 1973 book appears to use Best Sellers data, whilst the 1994 book at least makes it easy to see which chart the position is referring to. I’ll be sure to be careful when using the Hot 100 era books. The 1955-2002 book is the most recent one on the Internet Archive, which I figure is the best one to use.

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        • musicdoc1
          Sep 19, 2023 @ 14:36:28

          Much thanks for the additional helpful info, including your suggestions regarding the comparative reliability of various Whitburn books, and muchas gracias for the tip on the dead link. I’ve removed the link for now, but I’ll see if I can find that second thread again.

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    • musicdoc1
      Sep 19, 2023 @ 14:19:10

      It’s certainly concerning that Whitburn evidently doesn’t reveal, except unintentionally, to those who figure out his game, that the chart position he identifies for any single during the relevant years is one that he has cherry picked by choosing the highest position reached across multiple charts.

      However, according to the two forum threads I mention above, the issue isn’t limited to cherry-picked peak chart positions. The following quote from one of them summarizes the extent of the deception. The full post at the thread explains how, for the period 1955-1958, in profiling a single Whitburn would, if it suited his purpose, select peak position from one chart, “Weeks at No. 1” from another chart, and then “Weeks in Top 10,” “Weeks in Top 40,” and “Weeks in Top 100” from still other charts.

      •  forum at elvis-collectors.com; 21 November 2011 thread (quoting user Herkenrath)
        • Whitburn doesn’t only cherry-pick the peak positions but all other chart information as well. He takes the peak from one chart, weeks spent on chart from a different chartHe does it this way for every record charted in any of these [Billboard pop] charts between 1955 and 1958. So what you see in Joel Whitburn’s books for that period is indeed a cherry-picking from four different charts published by Billboard during that era.

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